Today I want to talk about something rather different from my recent posts, which have focused on politics and books. This is more of a writing style and editing issue, but one that comes up quite frequently here in Taiwan. It is the problem of how to write Chinese names in English texts. I'm not so much concerned here with the particular type of romanization (for those who don't know the term, this refers to spelling words from languages like Chinese, Thai, and Arabic using the Latin-based English alphabet) used, but the order in which the names should be written. This arises because in Chinese names the family name comes first, followed by the given name. This is true in most East Asian countries, including Japan, Korea and Vietnam.
Actually, the answer is quite simple: Romanized Chinese names should be written the same way they are written in Chinese, with the family name first. Thus we write Ma Ying-jeou (the president of Taiwan), Tsai Ing-wen (the leader of the opposition DPP), Hu Jintao (the president of China), and Mao Zedong (the former leader of China), and to be brief refer to them by their family names only, i.e., Ma, Tsai, Hu, and Mao. This is quite straightforward, but unfortunately many Taiwanese still end up confused, partly due to misguided attempts to adapt their names to English conventions.
Many Taiwanese have the idea that because in English names the family name comes last, they should also put their family name last when they write their name in English. But this is incorrect, unless they are using an English given name. For instance, the former vice president of Taiwan, Lu Xiulian, uses the English name Annette, so she is generally called Annette Lu in English-language news reports. But Chinese names are always written in the Chinese order, whether they are written in Chinese characters or in the English alphabet. Ma Ying-jeou does not use an English name, so his family name is written first. No respectable news organization writes it as Ying-jeou Ma. Unfortunately, many Taiwanese are not aware that this is an error; I even had my romanizations of a number of Taiwanese names appearing in my translation of the liner notes of Story Island (an album that won a number of awards and a Grammy nomination for design packaging) reversed by a Taiwanese editor, which infuriated me when I discovered it (especially since it makes it look like I myself made the errors).
The same principle applies to Korean names, so the president of South Korea is Lee Myung-bak (family name Lee) and the leader of North Korea is Kim Jong-il (family name Kim). Vietnamese names are likewise written family name first, so the prime minister of Vietnam is Nguyen Tan Dung (family name Nguyen). The only frequent exception to this rule is Japanese names. In Japanese, the family name also comes first, but it has become common practice to reverse this when the name is written in English, so the prime minister of Japan, whose name reads Kan Naoto in Japanese, usually appears as Naoto Kan in English news (though I have seen Japanese names written in the proper Japanese order in some places, and I prefer to write them that way myself).
Another common error Taiwanese make in writing their names is to leave the order alone but to put a comma after the family name. This incorrect and ugly (aesthetically-speaking) habit is particularly common among academics and people who have pursued advanced degrees, and seems to derive from the use of the comma in English names found in bibliographies, indexes and similar lists. But the reason for the comma in English names in such situations is simple; since in bibliographies and indexes we list names alphabetically by last (family) name, we reverse the usual order and use the comma to indicate this. So Barack Obama becomes Obama, Barack and Hillary Clinton becomes Clinton, Hillary. If a Chinese name appears in an index or bibliography, of course the family name comes first, but for Chinese names this is already the usual order, so no comma is necessary. Even for English names we only write something like "Obama, Barack" in specific situations. But some Taiwanese stick commas in their names on business cards and documents, and in the building housing the offices of Taiwan's legislators, the name plates on their doors actually have commas after their family names, which looks ridiculous.
One reason some Taiwanese have offered me for either writing their names backwards or sticking a comma into them is a fear that Westerners won't realize which name is their family name. I'll admit that if a Taiwanese writes his name as Lee Teng-hui, some Westerners might mistakenly call him "Mr. Teng-hui" rather than "Mr. Lee", though frankly I can't see how anyone who ever reads the international news could have a problem (everyone who does should be aware that Hu Jintao is "Mr. Hu" and Deng Xiaoping was "Mr. Deng"). But even if a few foreigners are ignorant, there is no reason for East Asians to mangle their own names to accommodate them. Perhaps on business cards or name tags they might want to capitalize their family name (e.g., TSAI Ing-wen), but that's as far as they should go.
Unfortunately, despite my best efforts and the advice of style manuals (not to mention the example of sites like Wikipedia and numerous news reports and articles from major international media organizations), Taiwanese still write their names all sorts of ways. I have even seen names written backward and with a comma (e.g., Ying-jeou, Ma), which combines the worst features of the two more common incorrect ways of writing names without even retaining the dubious virtue of clarifying which is the family name (though I suppose in a certain sense the comma is more logical here, because the normal ordering has really been reversed -- though this still doesn't explain why one would want to reverse it in the first place). While there is only so much I can do, I try to at least make sure the people I come into regular contact with learn the correct way of writing their names in English. Hopefully that will make at least a little bit of a difference.
Thursday, June 30, 2011
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Eric, very interesting post. More to say on all this later.....you bring up good points. Cheers,
ReplyDeleteDanny in south island
literate in French,
97% illiterate in Mandarin, Taiwanese
10 % literate in nihongo (speaking only)
My question:
Why do Taiwanse newspapers call foreign famous people by onlyu their last names....Einsten is never Albert Einsten in Mandarin characters or speaking, but just EINSTEIN....and HERMAN MELVILLE is just MELVILLE, and JEAN PAUL SARTE IS just SARTRERE......why do they leave off Western first names? it seems rude and course and crude and wrong and illieterate....Japanese newspaeprs do not do this...they use full names of WEEesterns... for exmaople if you NOBEL prize winner ERIC SCHEIHAGEN....in Taiwan newspapers you would be just SHEI_HAY- GUN......but in Japan the papers would call you "EH REE KOO SHY-HAY-GUNNOO".....any way to educate Taiwnaese newspaper editors of this >? danny asks....and of course i fully understand why and am okay with it,b ut just asking...SMILE...any idea
also: Japan English newspapers now called their people by WEestern order, Fisrt NAME LAST NAME.....only in English of coruse, so Junichiro Koizumi the PM before was always called that way in ENglsu and AP news stories too.... and second refence as Koizumi......i am in favor of English newsp-pers and academic papers using Western name style for Chinese names tooo..... so Teng-hui LEE is my preferred stule for English texts....but impossbile to change this in our lifetuinme...haha..yoiur POV?
email offline at
danbloom At gmail
Eric i had a chance to reread this on hard copy during lunch today and just in the spirit of give and take editors chatting back and forth, my POV but do not want in any way to perusade you to adopt my style book guidelines, but just for chatting sake:
ReplyDeleteIn fact, Japan leads to way here, being a fairly Westernized nation, I lived there for 5 years....and the trend NOW in Japan in English it to Western names when written in English newspapers, websites and even name cards. So Haruki Murakami is always called Haruki Murakami in newspapers in Japan (in English papers I mean, like the Japan Times, equivalent to Taiwan's ''Taipei Times'' or ''China (sic) Post'' -- [sic] because the Post is not published in China..... sigh....so I do feel that Chinese names in all English news reports worldwide should be Westernized. sO Lee Teng-hui should now be called Teng-hui Lee in all AP and Reuters news stories...and academic papers too...but of course, this will take some getting used to, as was also the case in Japan when they first switched over...
2. did you know that Vietnamse names in Englishj newspapers don't follow the style you menjtioned above? Nguyuen Tich Tu for example, whose family name is Ngyuen, he is called on second refernce in all AP and Reuters and NYT news stories as Tu..... really! how insulting! that's like calling you ERIC on second refernce in the NYTimes... and yet that is what they do, and I heard that even in Vietnam in Vietnamese they aslo followt his style.....I prottest. But it's true. TU becomes his name in all second and third etc refercdfmes
3. same is true for Thailand.... first ref gives family name first name...but second ref in English newspapersr and in Thailand newspapers tooi Thai langauge, usae first name....NOT famioy name...I also protest.....
This is more of a writing style and editing issue, but one that comes up quite frequently here in Taiwan. It is the problem of how to write Chinese names in English texts. I'm not so much concerned here with the particular type of romanization (for those who don't know the term, this refers to spelling words from languages like Chinese, Thai, and Arabic using the Latin-based English alphabet) used, but the order in which the names should be written. This arises because in Chinese names the family name comes first, followed by the given name. This is true in most East Asian countries, including Japan, Korea and Vietnam.
ReplyDelete***HOWEVER, it should be noted that in Japanese English expat newspapers in Tokyo and in all English newspapers worldwide and in AP and Reuters and NYT style books, Japanese names are now printed FIRST NAME LAST NAME in Western style, thus Haruki Murakami for Mr Murakami the novelist, not Murakami Haruki.
In Vietnam, also, Ngyugen Thu Thuy is called that for his reference in both English and Viet language newspapers but on second ref believe it or not he is called merely THUY all the way through the rest of the article. This is Vietnam culture style because there are so many Nguyens there, I am told, and also English papers now adopt this style....I protest! In vain. I asked NYT to follow polite way and call him Mr Nguyenin seccond ref but no.....they refuse
As for SOUTH KOREA, and name of that country shoild also carry the SOUTH KOREA tag, not just KOREA.....in South Korea English expat papers they unfortuantely follow Taiwan stule and still call their peop[le useing backward names....but they will see the light like Japan soon
4. Thailand also has Korea and Vietam syndrome and it wrong in Englsh, but cannot change for now.
Needless to say, I disagree on the name issue. The "correct" order for writing any name is the order in which it is written in the original language. Therefore, Chinese (or Korean, Vietnamese, etc.) names should be written family name first. There is nothing inherently superior in the Western way of doing things. I am aware that in the case of Japanese names it has become accepted practice both in Japan and internationally to reverse the order in English texts, and that all the style manuals now support this (while continuing to prescribe putting the family name first for Chinese, Korean, or Vietnamese names). However I don't think this is because the Japanese are particularly advanced; if anything I think it is more a reflection of their blind aping of Western practice (similar to their fondness for using English frequently, even when they don't know how to use it correctly -- also a common problem among Taiwanese).
ReplyDeleteNot all cultures even use family names. Some use patronymics or even a whole string of names based on their ancestry (e.g. Arab names). For another example, the Paiwan aborigines in Taiwan are named "name of birthplace + given name". There is no reason all those cultures should be expected to adapt to Western practice. Rather it should be up to Westerners to educate themselves about other cultures, including their naming conventions.
As for Vietnamese names, it is standard in Vietnamese to refer to people by their given name, even in formal usage. So the NYT is correct to refer to Ngyugen Thu Thuy as Mr. Thuy. To quote the Wikipedia example on Vietnamese names: "Nguyễn Tấn Dũng is the current Prime Minister of Vietnam. Nguyễn is his family name, Tấn is his middle name, and Dũng is his given name. In formal usage, he is referred to by his given name ("Mr. Dũng"), not by his family name ("Mr. Nguyễn")." Again, the conventions of the original language should be followed, even when writing in English.
I agree that it is generally better to refer to South Korea or North Korea when talking about the country, but in this case I was thinking about the culture rather than the political entities. I should have written something like "including Japan, Vietnam, and the two Koreas".
Incidentally, I completely agree about the name of the China Post. The problem is they have always been very pro-unification and very "greater China" in their political outlook. But it's still absurd to call your paper the "China Post" when it's published in Taiwan (the relatively uncommon Taiwan News was also once called "China News" but they changed their name a decade or so ago).
I see better now and appreciate your feedback here, Eric. I have changed my mind now re the name order thing for names from Asian countries, including Vietnam and Thailand. Thanks for the clarifications..,
ReplyDeleteone thing re lowercase uppercase on ABORIGINES:
You wrote: "For another example, the Paiwan aborigines in Taiwan are named "name of birthplace + given name"."
I feel Aborigines should be capped A.....in all cases and especially when following their tribal name. Note: the Taipei Times always caps the word as Aborigines and Aboriginal, always always, even when no tribal name comes before it, BUT the China Post always lowercases the term ABORIGINES even after the tribal name. I feel this is bc the CHINA POST looks down at Aborigines and considers them second class non-Han citizens. The TT on the other hand gives them dignity by capping the term. Your take?
And the Aborigines in Australia are always referred to with a cap A in all OZ newspapers and websites. go look. The TT is right. The CHINA POST is wrong. and what is your take now after my clarification here?. SMILE...
BETTER: For another example, the Paiwan Aborigines in Taiwan are named "name of birthplace + given name".
YES NO?